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From: John De Armond
Subject: Re: Save the Places You Love Most!
Date: Thu, 16 Dec 1999 17:17:19 EST
Newsgroups: rec.outdoors.rv-travel wrote:
> On Thu, 16 Dec 1999 18:15:34 GMT, wrote:
> <snippage>
> > And
> >the even more hare-brained POV that gummit should own/control even
> >more of it and keep us (the owners) off!
> <more snippage>
> This is an area that I am almost radical about. In the USA, we, the
> people OWN all public land. Period. It is mine. It is yours. Sure we
> need a few regs to keep it from being destroyed. But as few as
> possible.
>  A well managed forest is usually superior to one that is not. What is
> really lousy is when a gazillion acres are put away for use only by
> the 6 hikers in this country, leaving those of us who RV, camp by car,
> or motorcycle, out in the cold. These lands are for all of us,
> including, but not limited to, the wildlife therein. I love to wake up
> in the middle of the woods, but the truth is, I couldn't be there if
> the logging roads were not there.            Tom

Thank you, Tom.  You hit the nail on the head.  My family spent most
of the 70s leading an organization that fought the econazi's attempt
to take over all the Cherokee national forest for their own use.  In
hearings, the Sierra Club rep stated quite frankly that their goal
was to take all the forests and make them wilderness so that their
members could experience "solitude and spiritual refreshment".  We
finally burned out after about 10 years of fighting the econazis
both outside government and inside.

People say that forests are best when left alone to "manage
themselves."  This is like saying the humans are best when left
alone with their diseases to manage themselves.  It is, of course,
hogwash.  That terrible fire that burnt half of california a few
years ago started in a wilderness area and the guv'ment let it burn
because it was "natural."  Closer to home, the Southeast is being
ravaged by the Southern Pine Borer beetle.  It got its foothold in
the Joyce Kilmer Wilderness area.  Everyone including the Forestry
Service knew the beetle was reaching critical mass in the area but
they did nothing because the bug was "natural".  Of course, it used
to be natural to die at an average age of 50, to be an old man or
woman by 40 and to be ravaged by a wide variety of epidemics. 
Somehow the "un-natural" quality of life seems somewhat better.

In our area, when I was a kid, the Cherokee National forest was
managed by half a dozen rangers and two people in the district
office here in Cleveland.  The forests thrived and were used by all
who cared to, including loggers and us ORV people.  Then came the
econazis and the bureaucrats who smelled new empires to create.
Nowadays, the Forest service offices span a city block and the
bureaucrat count is over 100 in the region office alone.  Now almost
everything has been closed to all activities.  Used to, one could
camp wherever one could pitch a tent or park a vehicle.  Now one has
to be herded into one of a half dozen developed campground, complete
with $100k (really!) outhouses.  The "rangers" (I use that word with
great disdain) now seem to be most occupied trying to catch some
fisherman parked with his tire touching the pavement so that he can
be given a high priced ticket.  Almost no one goes up there
anymore.  No young people and no kids.  My motorcycle activities was
the main thing that kept me out of prison as a kid - I had no time
for mischief.  Seems we can build prisons and fences but we can't
seem to let people enjoy what they already own!

This is just another case of the government unconstitutionally
seizing power from the people.  At least in this case it can't be
said that they did it because we sat around and let them.  Quite the
contrary - with the unlimited resources of the federal government,
they simply wore us out.  Sad, very sad.  

Though the environazis spearheaded the effort and the feds funded
it, the great land grab would not have been possible without
explicit help from the same sort of crotchety old farts we see in
this group.  People who think that it's illegal to actually have
fun.  I vividly remember these old bastards hobbling out of their
decrepit old RVs parked on the side of the road to shake their
wrinkled fists at us as we rode by on our (properly muffled) dirt
bikes.  We observed quiet hours and low speed around populated areas
as we should have but that wasn't enough.  The mere act of having
fun was enough to send these miserable, petty old farts off to
complain about the noise or whatever.  The only good outcome was
that my vivid memory of these bastards keeps my determination firm
not to EVER be like them as I grow older.  Hmm, maybe it WAS better
when the old farts died at 50....


From: John De Armond
Newsgroups: rec.outdoors.rv-travel
Subject: Re: Muskrat's buddy's helped create fire hazards
Message-ID: <>
Date: Sat, 29 Jun 2002 23:59:08 -0400

On Sat, 29 Jun 2002 16:50:31 -0700, "Technobarbarian"
<> wrote:

>"Den73740" <> wrote in message
>> I always thought national forests were established to provide timber for
>> nation, recently a lot of pople seem to have confused them with national
>     The national forests were established because the government wasn't
>turning the land over to the people and it had to be managed. Up until
>fairly recent times the government didn't sell trees from public land
>because the big lumber companies didn't want the competition.

Well, techno, I don't know what your definition of "recent" is but in these
parts, the word doesn't work.  The Cherokee national forest timber was first
logged in these parts not too long after the war of northern aggression.  The
stands of hardwood have been regrown and logged at least three more times.

The law says that the NFs are "multi-use" forests (except for legislated
wilderness areas) and must be managed to the benefit of all citizens.  Logging
and mineral extraction is specifically included.  The econazi suits are
nothing more than obstructionism from groups that can't win in the public


From: John De Armond
Newsgroups: rec.outdoors.rv-travel
Subject: Pay showers (was Re: use bulk formaldehyde as porta-potty  chemical)
Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2004 01:12:44 -0500
Message-ID: <>

Most all the NFS CGs allow that around here.  My "crash camp" (the one I go to
when I need a weekend to crash and sleep) charges $3 to shower and $6 to use
the dump station.  Or maybe the other way around, can't recall right now.

Speaking of NFS, consider the latest stupidity they pulled at the Thunder Rock
CG on the Ocoee.  For decades it was a nice semi-primitive (graded sites but
no facilities other than the $80k a pop outhouses that stink so bad they can
blister cast iron) CG that I spent a LOT of time at, particularly over the
winter when AC wasn't necessary.  At the end of 2003 season I noticed them
starting construction of an elaborate shower house and hideously ugly
above-grade leach field.

Driving through one time this summer when it was still hot, I noticed that the
shower house was open and that they'd bumped the daily fee from $8 to $18.
Still no other facilities.  Called them a few choice words.

Came back on the first cool weekend after Labor Day and what did I find?  A
gate across the whole damned campground.  The sign at the fee board said that
they were closing the campground during winter now to "reduce maintenance" but
that they'd generously (SIC) allow us to camp for free in the hiking parking
places along the road in.  Let's examine this bureau-think.

Every year in the past when I went to camp there (every 3 or so weeks) there
were at least 2 other dry campers and usually more, each paying the $8 fee.
No facilities and no services.

This year they collect NO fees but still have to empty the garbage cans
(outside the gate), keep the roads and paths clean and other such work.
What's wrong with this picture?

Any, so I pull out of Thunder Rock and head back in the mountains to a flat
spot along a little creek I knew about.  Enough room for about 3 campsites in
the dirt.  Not this year.  The NFS b*stards had fenced in the spot with
railings and big rocks so that there was only one spot.  And that one had a
gate across it.

They have now managed to eliminate ALL non-fee camping places and almost all
non-fee PARKING places in the Ocoee River watershed.  And people wonder why I
hate government...

On Wed, 18 Feb 2004 12:59:17 -0500, bill horne <> wrote:

>Speaking of rules, I was at a COE CG a few weeks ago, and a note on the
>board said that non-campers (those who had not paid the camping fee)
>could use the showers for $2.
>Anybody know if this is a systemwide COE thing, or just a local policy?
>And has anyone ever noticed this in a NFS CG? I haven't.

From: John De Armond
Newsgroups: rec.outdoors.rv-travel
Subject: Re: Tellico Plains TN
Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2005 00:18:15 -0500
Message-ID: <>

On Thu, 17 Mar 2005 21:55:43 GMT, "MoParMaN"
<> wrote:

>Cool, We used to go up there on vacation in the mid 60's. I got bit by a
>copperhead snake. The park ranger at the time was an Indian named Charlie
>Mountain.... He said I was big enough and would just get a little sick, but
>not to worry other than that..... I hate Indians now. But I did survive.

Charlie Mountain.  I hadn't thought of him in years.  Great guy.  He
was friends with mom and dad and spent hours sitting on the cabin
porch shooting the... well, whatever needed shooting.

He was the Ranger and Joe Floyd was the Game and Fish man.  He only
had about half of one calf muscle from where a wild boar tushed him in
the leg.  The two of them took care of the entire wildlife management
area in Tellico.  Back then (late 60s to mid 70s) it was those two
plus a Game and Fish guy named Ray Beaty who never left the Hatchery
who ran the forest.  There were about 3 people in the Cherokee Nat
Forest HQ here in Cleveland.

Now there are a couple hundred HQ people, the office is a 2 story,
block long affair and there are dozens of bureaucrats in the Tellico
area.  Funny thing, since they've closed down so much of the forest,
there are many fewer facilities to oversee.  Of course, it would be
unheard of for a ranger to actually get out of his truck and go
walking through the woods looking for problems like Charlie and Joe

Now matter how far back up in the head waters you went, there was a
chance that Joe or Charlie would amble out of the bushes to check your
license and creel limit.  And then sit down with you to chat awhile.
Nowadays we have chickensh*t Forest Service "law enforcement" types
(as opposed to regular rangers) riding up and down the paved roads
giving tickets to fishermen who let their tires touch the pavement
when they pull off to fish.  (anyone who thinks I'm exaggerating
probably should go up there and park with their tires touching the
edge of the pavement and find out.)

>I imagine it has changed now.

It has.  The privately owned parts haven't changed all that much.  The
Tellico Lodge (the big log cabin motel) burned in the mid 70s.
There's an RV park there now.  The Green Cove Store owners have added
some sorta tacky prefab motel rooms along the river.  Other than that,
about the same.

Unfortunately the same can't be said for the federally controlled
parts.  I'm getting to where I hate to leave the cabin because the
destruction they've wrought on the area just makes me want to cry.


From: John De Armond
Newsgroups: rec.outdoors.rv-travel
Subject: not ot: Forest Service to close and privatize hundreds of campgrounds
Date: Sun, 23 Apr 2006 03:01:30 -0400
Message-ID: <>

On Sat, 22 Apr 2006 20:10:28 -0700, altar nospam <>

>On Sat, 22 Apr 2006 20:22:10 -0500, sally <> wrote:
>>Saturday, April 22, 2006
>Are you related to chicken little? According to all of your post's
>here, we are doomed.

The only problem with your plonking, Tom, is that the FS has already
done just what the article describes in all the Cherokee National
Forest.  They've pulled all the hand pumps and welded the wellheads
shut.  They've even put posters on the propaganda boards at the fee
sites congratulating themselves on a job well done, like removing all
the pumps is something to be proud of.

I don't know which is worse, removing the pumps or some of the reasons
why.  For instance, look at this section on my web site about Spivey
Cove CG in Tellico, near my cabin.

Particularly this photo

See that $100k sh*thouse right next to the welded-up wellhead?  They
dropped that monstrosity down not fifty feet from the well a few years
ago and then they "had to close the well" because bacteria showed up
in the water.  Well duh!

I can't think of anything that pegs my stupidity meter any harder than
a mosey into the National Forest most anywhere around here.  It's like
someone has been hired to write the most insane, absurd and
counter-intuitive script possible and then assigned the FS to execute
it. Those guys make the Three Stooges look like intellectuals.

Up through the late 70s the Tellico district had exactly ONE federal
ranger (Joe Floyd), ONE state game warden (Mr Love, can't recall his
first name) and one roving maintenance guy who also covered the
Hiwassee district.  There were perhaps 5 people in the Cherokee Nat
Forest HQ office here in Cleveland.  Everything ran fine and thousands
of people enjoyed the forest.  I made some of my best life-long
friends from people I met in the woods and the flat-spots.

Now, with FEWER facilities to manage because they've closed so many,
the same land mass and FEWER guests, there are at least 25 government
employees in the Tellico district alone and over 300 in the HQ
building here in Cleveland.  I might add that this building is a block
long multi-story affair, built just for the FS.

They've turned the actual Tellico area into a ghost town.  They've
hauled boulders in to block off all the ad-hoc camping areas and flat
spots and blocked off all but half a dozen pull-offs where fishermen
parked to fish.  Of course, we have FS "law enforcement" guys cruising
up and down the river road writing tickets to anyone who dares let his
tire touch the edge of the pavement while he's fishing.  The state
game and fish people are as up in arms as we are but there isn't a
thing they seem to be able to do against this imperious bunch of

Another example of the insanity is the recent bear mauling/killing in
Ocoee.  Within hours of the report of this incident, the local hunting
club got together an ad-hoc posse of hunters and bear dogs and
presented themselves to the head ranger to go find the bear while the
tracks were still fresh.  These are guys who grew up hunting those
woods and could have nailed the bear in minutes.

The response?  "Oh no, we'll handle it ourselves".  THREE DAYS LATER
they managed to bring in some outsider hunters and bear dogs.  They
managed to kill a bear and then called a press conference, only to
retract later that day when the bear "wasn't big enough".  Then they
killed another but it wasn't big enough either.  After killing a third
not-guilty bear, their latest press release of last week said that
they had the guilty party "quarantined in a 1000 acre area".  Uh Huh!

I don't do TV or newspapers anymore so I was only vaguely aware of
this incident.  I got the details today while at Benton Shooter's
Supply "from the horse's mouth" from an ex-Polk County Sheriff who
organized the original posse.  Stupidity flows in the FS like water in
the streams.

Short of taking to the ridge lines with a sniper rifle, I don't know
what to do about it. It is as if an imperial landslide of insanity is
whooshing through the forest and there is nothing anyone can do about

If they'd let the "good ole boys" get the bear the first day, it would
have still had human flesh in its digestive tract (since it ate part
of the kid it killed) and could have been positively identified as the
guilty party.  But once the bear sh*ts in the woods, well you just
don't know......

Want another example of FS venality?  The largest and nicest CG in the
Tellico River corridor is North River CG.  Mostly unimproved with only
the (now removed) well pumps and a couple of $100k sh*thouses (they
actually do spend that much on each one).  Winter-before-last some
vandals cut down some trees in the CG and let 'em block the road and
one fell on a sh*thouse.

The FS's response?  Close the CG and post signs at the gates stating
that the closure is to get even with the perps.  If it's still closed
(I haven't been over to check since Christmas), this will be the
second summer of "getting even".  Worse, one of the 4WD clubs that
traditionally has their jamboree at the CG every July volunteered to
clean up and repair the CG at no government cost if the FS would
re-open it.  They were refused.

That CG was built by the CCC and has never been closed for more than a
day or two at a time for maintenance since I've been going there. Now,
thanks to that vindictive head cunt (the best words to describe this
California import forest manager), it's been idle for 2+ years.

Here's some more of her fine work:

And here, bottom of the page, the Old Rock Quarry

She got relieved of duty a couple months ago so maybe things will
change.  I'm not holding my breath.


From: John De Armond
Newsgroups: rec.outdoors.rv-travel
Subject: Re: not ot: Forest Service to close and privatize hundreds of 
Date: Sun, 23 Apr 2006 17:45:39 -0400
Message-ID: <>

On Sun, 23 Apr 2006 08:53:48 -0500, sally <> wrote:

>Neon John wrote:

Please learn not to quote whole articles...
>You won't like what I say but....   It's Bush's "mandate" To turn
>America upside dwon. He represents the top of the economic food chain
>not  all Americans.

That'd be a really good trick for the Bushies to pull, considering
that this stuff really got underway during the clinton administration.
The California cunt who master-minded this debacle was transferred
here during clinton's administration.

I do have to admit that I'm impressed and amazed at your ability to
"know" what the Bushies (or Congress or whatever public) official is
doing and thinking from your armchair thousands of miles away. Perhaps
you could offer your clairvoyant services to the local cop shop's
missing persons or cold case squad?


From: John De Armond
Newsgroups: rec.outdoors.rv-travel
Subject: Re: not ot: Forest Service to close and privatize hundreds of 
Date: Sun, 23 Apr 2006 18:05:05 -0400
Message-ID: <>

On Sun, 23 Apr 2006 07:52:24 -0700, altar nospam <>

>I didn't read the links Sally provided. She's cried wolf so often,
>always in the same vein, that I figured it's just another long rant
>that someone copy/pasted into a post.
>She stays in the filters, but thanks for the info.

Yeah, I have her plonked too but I also have watch-phrases set up for
"forest service" and as many variations as I can think of.  I want to
keep an eye on the enemy that way.  That article was the usual
painfully ignorant writing that emits from modern "journalists" but it
did identify a real and serious problem.

The Forest Service has been out of control around here since the 70s,
locking up facilities, closing roads and generally doing everything
they can to keep people out.

When the eco-extremists were first gaining a foothold, my mom
organized a group called SORE (Save Our Recreational Environment).
She, most of the other private land owners in the Tellico area, the
mayor of Tellico Plains (Charles Hall), the ORV clubs and several area
ORV dealers teamed up and basically stalled the closures for a decade.
We finally wore down and since the nuts were in cahoots with the FS
which saw a golden opportunity to build an empire, eventually they won

I still vividly recall a FS public hearing in the mid-70s where the
president of the Knoxville Sierra Club got up and matter-of-factly
said that their goal was to take the entire mountain for the exclusive
use of hikers and horseback riders so that they could "seek solitude
and spiritual refreshment."

We thought at the time, "no way in hell" but evidently there was a
path through hell because they've mostly succeeded.  In the Tellico
corridor the FS has adopted the old Soviet policy (and posted signs to
that effect) that everything is illegal unless explicitly stated

Now, if you don't want to park in the few designated places or
flat-spot in the few designated area or fish (somehow the TN F&G has
managed to hold onto the authority to control the fishing and hunting)
then there's nothing up there for you.

Many years ago the ORV clubs got together and built or restored trails
and roads in the area.  We spent thousands of man-hours building
water-breaks, railroad tie stair-steps up steep hills and all the
other stuff necessary to keep the trails from washing.  After we'd
done that (with FS approval), the FS came in, closed all those trails,
gated the entrances and put up signs for "hiking and horses only".  We
spent OUR money for materials and OUR labor, only to have it stolen.

We did the same thing on the North Carolina side.  Fortunately there
has been a decent district ranger over there so the roads have stayed
open.  Even there, imperiousness reared its ugly head.  The FS seized
the trails we'd built and turned them into fee areas.  Now to ride on
the trails that I helped build I have to pay $15 a day!

I can't get started on this again or I WILL end up on a ridgeline.....


From: John De Armond
Newsgroups: rec.outdoors.rv-travel
Subject: Re: Heaven on Earth
Date: Tue, 29 May 2007 23:11:03 -0400
Message-ID: <>

On Tue, 29 May 2007 16:11:12 -0500, dmr <> wrote:

>Thanks for the memories.  In the early 1980's, I vacationed several
>times mainly at State-line Campground.  I have an older cousin from
>Ooltawah who showed me the area around 1978.  He was big into Jeeping.

Kewl.  Jeeping is still really big on the NC side where the forest service is more
rational. On a major ORV weekend all the campgrounds from Green Cove on up will be
full of ORV'ers.

>My twin brother and I  brought our dirt bikes on a trailer several times
>from Jackson, Miss. where we lived.   We also came up several times to
>trout fish and hike.  I have stayed in in the Green Cove before, but
>mainly used a tent.  I met a man who was working in the Lil Bear General
>Store who had scars on his legs from boar hunting with a spear.  He also
>told us about the "Battle of Athens" in 1946 in which he participated.

That was Bill White, the organizer and leader of the Battle.  If you ever run across
a book titled "On the Wings of Eagles", grab it.  It's a biography of Bill.
Unfortunately when the book was written some statutes of limitation hadn't yet
expired and Bill couldn't talk about some of his more spectacular exploits during the
Battle.  I have a newspaper photo of him standing on a podium, GI haircut, white Tee
with cigs rolled up in the sleeve and holding an M1 rifle over his head, motivating
the crowd.

>Last time I was there was in 1990.  They had started to widen the road
>coming out of Tellico Plains along the river.  I assumed they would pave
>the road right into North Carolina.  Does the road still pretty much
>stop at State Line Campground?

yep.  Dirt trail starting at the line.  The road is much improved but alas, with the
good comes the bad.  The FS has blocked most of the side-of-the-road parking with
rocks and logs so that one must hike long distances to fish or see the scenery.

>Many wonderful memories.  Sound like the Forest Dis-Service has really
>tightened things up.

It's gotten thoroughly out of control.  A couple weeks ago my neighbor's teenage kid
road his 4-wheeler from our private loop to the green cove store. He had to cross the
road perpendicular to the flow of traffic.  The FS ranger b*tch who was loafing in
the area saw him and verbally assaulted him for "taking that unlicensed vehicle on
OUR road".  Those of us who witnessed it were stunned.  Stunned that someone could be
that chickensh*t.  Stunned too, that a petty bureaucrat would talk that way to a
citizen, particularly a well-behaved and polite one.  It wasn't that long ago that
such behavior up here would have earned the 'crat a bullet between the eyes.  I miss
those days.

>PS - your e-mail didn't work.
>Brandon, Miss.

Thanks for the note.  I have just this evening finally finished the journey of a
thousand years.... changing hosting companies for my web and email service.  It took
literally three months from the time I decided that it was time to change until I got
everything working.  That included going through 5 previous hosting companies.  I've
now found a jewel -  I can't say enough good things about
them, particularly their support.

I just spent the last 3 days chasing an email problem that turned out to be in the
crappy accelerator software that comes with this dial-up account.  They're improperly
caching DNS records, but only for HTTP,ftp, POP and SMTP, pointing back to my old
host a week after changing over.  I'd ping my new mail server and it would work and
yet my mail login failed.  I'd use a remote diagnostics site
( - another excellent tool) and things would be fine.
Only the services that were "accelerated" were affected.

Anyway, my email has been spotty for the last week.  It should be working now.  Note
that now that I have working properly I'm going to be depreciating all
the addresses.  I fought with GoDaddy for over a year about their
tossing most of the mail that came to on the virtual floor.  Changing
hosting services solved that problem!  I want to have everything coming to one
mailbox.  I just this moment tested the website email address and verified that it is

Maybe those memories will motivate you to come back.  If you do, be sure to drop in
for a spell.  I'll rustle up some grub and we can chat'n'chew :-)


From: John De Armond
Newsgroups: rec.outdoors.rv-travel
Subject: Re: Good News - Bad News
Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2007 14:24:09 -0400
Message-ID: <>

On Wed, 11 Jul 2007 10:40:16 -0700, wrote:

>On Wed, 11 Jul 2007 07:19:11 -0400, Steve Wolf <>
>>I hear a bunch of yelling and complaining.  That's to be expected.  But
>I have worked tirelessly, along with thousands of others with the
>state legislators, and federal politicians regards the NF and access.
>That can, and has been, cancelled by one power hungry bureaucrat in
>the NF system. They interpret the rules and laws to suit their own
>egos. We The People get screwed, and have to pay their damn salaries
>to get that screwing.
>It's a national travesty.

It's easy for people like Steve to talk that trash from the sidelines.  Another
situation entirely to be involved.

In the early 70s when the FS was first seizing power, my mom, myself and a few other
families up here formed S.O.R.E (Save Our Recreational Environment.)  Eventually we
had the mayor of Tellico, most of the board of aldermen and the Monroe county
commission, all our state representatives and one federal congressman as members. For
almost 15 years we fought the bastards.  It became my mom's full time job.

While we held them off for years, they finally wore us down.  With unlimited funding
and unlimited time plus the power of the federal government on their side, we were no
match.  At one early public hearing a longhairedhippyfreak from the Sierra Club got
up and nonchalantly stated that they intended to take the entire mountain for
themselves for "solitude and spiritual refreshment".  They've pretty much succeeded.

The situation is now that the FS is enforcing the new federal religion of
environmentalism.  Just as with other whacko religions, nothing is too outrageous in
the furtherance of the cause.  Couple that with the empire building opportunities
created and you end up with the FS of today.

I don't know what to do other than locking and loading.  I'm too old and too tired to
wage that kind of political battle again.  People up here seem anesthetized to the
oppression.  Stockholm syndrome, I guess.  My major goal now is to enjoy the
couple-three decades I have left and keep the bastards off my private property.
They've tried in the past to seize private property up here, claiming they needed to
rid the forest of "private inholdings".

From: John De Armond
Newsgroups: rec.outdoors.rv-travel
Subject: Re: Out Camping
Date: Mon, 05 Nov 2007 08:33:24 -0500
Message-ID: <>

On Sun, 04 Nov 2007 16:49:28 -0500, bill horne <> wrote:

>Just as "no alcohol" rules don't mean that every beer sipper is going
>to be accosted. As a Ranger once told me when I asked, they had the
>rule so that they have a reason to evict troublesome drunks without
>ending up in court on some discrimination charge, or trying to prove
>that the culprit was, in fact, being disorderly.

If you ever bring your dogs and Nerdafari to the Cherokee National Forest, you'll
find that the operating conditions are slightly different.  Here the FS gestapo
stroll into your site, get in your vehicle and look in your ice boxes for alcohol,
the Constitution be damned.  When they find it, they make you pour it out and then
write a separate ($165) ticket for each can or bottle.

Yeah, it's illegal and unconstitutional and it has the area in an uproar and has
greatly affected attendance this year but until someone musters the drive and the
money to stop the bastards, that's the way it is.  Just so you know.

Oh, and don't let the shadow of your Nerdafari touch the boundary of the camp site
(illegal to flatspot in non-designated areas) or the pavement or you'll get a ticket
for camping outside a designated spot.  $169 for that one.


From: John De Armond
Newsgroups: rec.outdoors.rv-travel
Subject: Re: Out Camping
Date: Mon, 05 Nov 2007 13:09:52 -0500
Message-ID: <>

On Mon, 05 Nov 2007 12:15:53 -0500, bill horne <> wrote:

>Neon John wrote:

>> If you ever bring your dogs and Nerdafari to the Cherokee National Forest, you'll
>> find that the operating conditions are slightly different.  Here the FS gestapo
>> stroll into your site, get in your vehicle and look in your ice boxes for alcohol,
>> the Constitution be damned.  When they find it, they make you pour it out and then
>> write a separate ($165) ticket for each can or bottle.
>> Yeah, it's illegal and unconstitutional and it has the area in an uproar and has
>> greatly affected attendance this year but until someone musters the drive and the
>> money to stop the bastards, that's the way it is.  Just so you know.
>> Oh, and don't let the shadow of your Nerdafari touch the boundary of the camp site
>> (illegal to flatspot in non-designated areas) or the pavement or you'll get a ticket
>> for camping outside a designated spot.  $169 for that one.
>damn. I flatspotted up there once when I had two unscheduled - and
>simultaneous - flat tires. I was on the way to Lost Creek CG. Lucky
>for me no Rangers came by - I was carrying a 30-day supply of Dogs
>for Utah. And I was sitting there sipping one whilst I supervised the
>compressor. And one can do a lot of sipping while waiting for a
>WalMart compressor to fill two tires.

This is something new they implemented over the last winter.  Allegedly the no booze
rule was to control wanton debauchery in the campgrounds.  Admittedly some of the
parties got a little out of hand but as usual when government has unconstrained
powers, they took the lazy and profitable way out.  Instead of patrolling the
campgrounds late at night to ticket the drunks, they simply banned booze all over.
After all, it's soooo much easier to catch an unsuspecting 4WD guy with a six-pack
for later in the evening than it is to stay up past their bedtimes to actually catch
the few offenders.  And soooo much more profitable.

One of the rangers was in the store this morning bragging about making some guy pour
out 6 cases of beer that was inside his closed but unfortunately not locked SUV.  The
guy wasn't drunk or misbehaving - by the ranger's admission - but was simply sitting
at his campsite when this storm trooper walked up, opened this guy's hatch and went
to prowling inside.

The problem seems to be worst in the Tellico district, followed by Citico and then

Of course, if you take a trip to Tellico, you're perfectly welcome to flat-spot on
one of my lots.  It's private property and they know better than to trespass.

Even though I don't drink, I'm thinking about designating one of my lots as a free
"Gestapo-free, alcohol-welcome safe haven".

From: John De Armond
Newsgroups: rec.outdoors.rv-travel
Subject: Re: desolation
Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2007 18:21:17 -0500
Message-ID: <>

On Mon, 17 Dec 2007 09:41:58 -0800, "Frank Howell" <> wrote:

>Neon John wrote:
>> Well, the forest service has achieved its goal of running everyone
>> off up here, it looks like.  I did a loop around the forest this
>> morning and found not a single camper.  Not one.  All those lovely
>> over-priced camp sites sitting empty.  Wonder if the $20/night fee
>> has anything to do with it?
>John, does that $20 fee include full hookups, or is that a dry camp park?

That's strictly for a flat spot to let your RV quit rolling at.  No facilities at all
other than the FS's $100,000 (really!) outhouses.

Most of the CGs are pictured on my web site.  It needs an update to account for the
destruction the FS wrought last winter.  All but one of the free CGs is gone now.
Several others were butchered up.  Instead of having a nice big flat spot where one
could park wherever he wanted, now they've laid down timbers delineating slots.  That
cut the available slots by more than half.  No longer can you cluster several RVs and
tents around a large camp fire and have a get-together.

Then the pricks have the gall to pat themselves on the back with posters bragging
about how much "good" they've done with their extortionist fees.

Damn, I'm glad I own property here.


From: John De Armond
Newsgroups: rec.outdoors.rv-travel
Subject: Re: desolation
Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2007 23:20:58 -0500
Message-ID: <>

On Tue, 18 Dec 2007 08:59:36 -0800, "Frank Howell" <> wrote:

>Mike Hendrix wrote:

>> John, look on the bright side.  That $20 fee is cheaper than
>> Californians pay for the same thing (no hookups) in their state parks
>> where they also don't have any hookups.
>> The odd thing about it is they think they are getting a good deal.
>> Possibly they are since they are booked up in the summer.
>> mike
>California state parks have an average fee of $25 with no hookups. A number
>of parks on the coast have what are called "front row" sites that go for $39
>a night.
>The reason many parks are booked up for all summer is that 90% of the parks
>are reservable for the "hi season," for the entire park. Example, if you
>want to reserve a campsite at Refugio state park in August, you must go on
>line Feb. 1 at 8 AM and already have your site picked out with all the
>pertinent info and be ready to hit the enter key at the screen that allows
>you to finalize the reservation. If you don't do this then you won't get a
>reservation as all coast state parks are sold out in the first hour.
>The last time I saw a state park in Calif expand was 1980 and IIRC they have
>added one new park since then.
>In Oregon, where I reside now, their system has about 50% of the park on a
>first come basis and the rest is reservable. IMO a better system. Many of
>them have full hookups and the average cost is $22.

Fortunately several thousand miles separate that ah, "place" from here.  Sometimes it
seems like a few more thousand miles would be handy.

To put this in perspective, the long term slots in the Green Cove RV park go for
$40/month on the non-river side to $100/month on the river bank.  One of my neighbors
who has a cabin on leased land just bought the land.  Around 300 ft of riverfront
property that he paid $95,000 for.  We (the other residents) thought it exorbitant
(and the comps agree) but he's retired and like me, plans on dying here.

In the Hiawassee River area, right over the mountain, same forest, different manager,
the FS pay slots go for $8, up from $6 last year.  There are plenty of free spots to
flatspot too.

Until last year, all but one of these exorbitantly prices CGs were free flatspots.
The three main pay CGS were 6, 8 and 10 dollars, the price going up as the location
gets closer to the ORV area.

This problem, along with several more that aren't pertinent to this thread,
originated with the californiabitch they imported to manage this section of the
forest several years ago.  She was uniformly despised.  She's gone now (hehehe) so
maybe with a little work, things will straighten up.


From: John De Armond
Newsgroups: rec.outdoors.rv-travel
Subject: Re: The End is Near
Date: Tue, 18 Mar 2008 11:53:23 -0400
Message-ID: <>

On Tue, 18 Mar 2008 10:11:44 -0500, Bob Giddings <> wrote:

>On Tue, 18 Mar 2008 08:18:07 -0400, HD Matt
>>I'm glad to see that I'm not the only one that has noticed that. Went
>>to Cherokee NC a few years ago and took the Great Smokie Mounting
>>Railway trip. It stopped in "kayakland", never saw so many high end
>>SU's and yuppy twits in my life!
>Then you haven't seen the fly fishing crowd shoulder to shoulder
>along the Kenai when the salmon are running in late summer.  Only
>golfers wear weirder garb.  And golfers generally only apply a
>hook to the ball.

The fishing crowd up here is pretty sedate by modern standards.  By the standards I
was raised on, they're rude and crude too.  I was taught to never invade another
fisherman's hole, to get out of the river and walk around him.  Nowadays, they'll
walk right in on you, sometimes close enough to tangle lines....

Anyway, the kayakers' silly dress doesn't bother me.  It's how they behave.  The
entire area is there for their exclusive enjoyment and everyone else has to bend to
accommodate.  On the river, probably the rudest thing I've seen is them blasting
through a fishing hole, right on top of the fisherman.  Then there's the standing in
the roadway chatting while traffic backs up behind them.  And parking wherever their
fancy strikes, regardless of the terrain or flora.  And the trail of trash that
remains behind.

Then there is their behavior around locals.  I've sat at the general store many a
time and seen the arrogant yups come in, bitching continuously about the lack of
whatever city amenity.  And looking down their noses and making fun of the
proprietor.  What they don't realize is that the proprietor is doing exactly what he
wants to be doing and is worth more than the whole bunch combined.  Then there's the
parking in the RV court grass despite the no parking signs, dogs and other pets in
the store, trash and used diapers in the parking lot....

If other folks behaved that badly I'd not have noticed, as I don't go out of my way
to look for such things.  But they don't.  The "water sports" types are so much worse
than anybody else that they stick out like sore thumbs.


From: John De Armond
Subject: Re: Noisy squirrel in my attic. How do I get it out?
Date: Thu, 01 May 2008 20:11:55 -0400
Message-ID: <>

On Thu, 1 May 2008 15:45:53 -0700 (PDT), gpsman <>

>On Apr 29, 7:46 pm, "Stormin Mormon"
><cayoung61**> wrote:
>> Or where other people find out about it.
>The Montana Wolf Reduction Project credo may apply;  SSS.
>Shoot, Shovel, Shut-up.

That same credo is being applied here where the artificially imported otters
have absolutely stripped clean the Tellico River.  It's heavily stocked during
the season but in the past, fishing was decent even in the off-season.  Last
winter, by about January I couldn't chum any trout with anything I tried -
bread dough, corn, etc.  The river was sterile.  At the same time, the banks
were littered with dead trout that had only their brains and eyes eaten - an
otter hallmark.  They kill fish even when they're not hungry, eat the tasty
part and waste the rest.  But they sure do make good targets :-)

In this case, the creedo is "SKS"

Shoot, Kick, Shutup.  That is, kick the carcass out into the river so it'll
float away and give the catfish and crawdads some fine eating.

Tip: CB caps in the .22 short format are almost silent when fired out of a .22
rifle.  Even quieter than a pellet gun.  All I hear is the hammer smacking the
firing pin and the bullet smacking home.  Absolutely deadly to the otters.


From: John De Armond
Newsgroups: misc.rural
Subject: Re: There goes the neighborhood
Date: Sat, 11 Oct 2008 21:20:39 -0400
Message-ID: <>

On Sat, 11 Oct 2008 22:45:08 GMT, Grizzly <> wrote:

>Larry Caldwell wrote:

>> I wish some of the greenies would get a clue about how sterile a closed
>> canopy forest is.  There is nothing to eat at ground level.  Anything
>> larger than a vole has to go elsewhere or starve.

It's a religious cause.  Practicality means nothing to them.

>Greenies don't hunt or eat meat, or for the most part don't tend to
>leave the confines of their condo's in the city unless it is to go to
>work, or run to starbucks for a frappaccino..therefore, they don't care
>if precious little animal life  survives in a forest..

Yup.  Until about 25-30 years ago when the far out there, starry-eyed
eco-freaks took control of the FS, the FS (in accordance with law) would lease
out 50 to 100 acre plots for logging.  Mostly clear-cutting.  They'd
competitively bid the lots and actually make money on the process.  The
logging company would come in, cut everything out, pull the stumps, plant
ground cover and replacement trees (hard wood) and leave.

In a year, that patch would be the best game browse one could ever imagine.
That's why the Tellico River game management area had such a reputation for
hunting.  So many people wanted to hunt that the game and fish people held
lottery drawings.

G&F still goes through motions of the lottery but there's literally no game up
here now other than russian boar and the occasional bear that wanders over
from the Great Smokeys NP.  Like I said before, last year they killed 2 deer
during the whole season.  I watched one guy carry his in to be weighed - under
his arm.  I thought it was a wounded dog.  Dressed out at a princely 45 lbs. I
heard that the other one barely hit 60 lbs.

But it gets worse.  I was talking to a G&F guy last week (they loathe the FS
about as much as we residents do).  Rather than admit that they were wrong in
banning logging, now the FS is letting contracts to have companies come in
and, now dig this, cut artificial browse meadows.  According to the G&F guy,
they're going to leave the tree trunks where they fall which will, of course,
obstruct the growth of the kind of flora that deer and other game eat.  And,
no doubt, attract the kinds of parasites that are drawn to dead wood.

In a nutshell, the insane FS is now PAYing someone to WASTE a valuable
resource (wood) where in the past they made money on the leases.  Beyond even
federal goverment insane.  Keep in mind that this kind of crap is what they
mean when they claim to "manage our forests".

Just in case you ever wondered where some of your tax dollars go.


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