From: thunder@rmii.com (Ed Rasimus)
Newsgroups: rec.aviation.military
Subject: Re: Distinguished Flying Cross?
Date: Mon, 21 Jul 1997 14:21:22 GMT

Dan Ford <df@christa.unh.edu> wrote:


>I gather that the DFC is the lowest level of medal given for gallantry to
>an officer in the USAAF, World War II. Is that correct?

You gather incorrectly. The Air Medal is the lowest level of medal
available for aviation activity. (I hesitate to use the term
"gallantry" as each medal offers a specific term to describe the level
of heroism--for example the highest award, the MOH, uses
"intrepidity".)

The awards for aviation cover sustained operations, aviation
achievement, heroism, and heroism against an opposing armed force. The
Air Medal is routinely awarded for the first two -- sustained ops and
aviation accomplishment, but it can be awarded for heroism. During
WWII and even into the SEA period, the criteria for an heroic award of
the AM spelled out "downing of one enemy aircraft in the air or
destruction of two on the ground." (This despite the fact that SEA MiG
kills usually got a Silver Star.)

The DFC can be awarded for aeronautical achievement as well as heroism
against an opposing armed force. It ranks above the AM and equivalent
to the Bronze Star (which is not awarded for aeronautical feats.)

The Silver Star is awarded for "gallantry" and requires voluntary (the
recipient chooses) risk of life against an opposing armed force. The
SS can be awarded for ground or air actions.

Above the SS is the service cross--the DSC (Distinguished Service
Cross) for Army, Navy Cross for Navy and AF Cross for AF.

Then the MOH--generally not officially referred to as "Congressional."



>At what level were DFCs handed out in the 1940s? Is it fairly unusual for
>a six-year veteran to have received the DFC with two oak leaf clusters?
>(To be exact, he earned one in combat, one for setting a cross-country
>record, and the third for being killed while flight-testing a new
>aircraft.)

It is not at all unusual for a six year veteran to recieve the award
three times, particularly during a period of armed conflict. It is
unusual to recieve two awards for non-combat operations.

I don't know what the frequency or ease of award was in the WW II
period, but I can testify that in the later years of the Vietnam
conflict, the DFC had become horribly degraded. Policy was that
tactical aircrews would usually be awarded an "end of tour" DFC--if
you flew combat missions for a complete one year tour, the rationale
was that you must have done something worthy of the medal.
Unfortunately when everyone has one, the possession has a much less
value.


 Ed Rasimus                   *** Peak Computing Magazine
  Fighter Pilot (ret)         ***   (http://peak-computing.com)
                              *** Ziff-Davis Interactive
                              ***   (http://www.zdnet.com)

Newsgroups: sci.military.naval
From: baldwin@netcom.com (J.D. Baldwin)
Subject: Re: Navy Achievement and Navy Commendation medals--what are criteria?
Date: Tue, 16 Mar 1999 16:12:40 GMT

In article <36eddc4d.4817541@nntp.cts.com>, <random@notatnetcom.com>
wrote:
> A lot of these medals go to sailors and officers who have worked
> their asses off and I dare say few will contradict me.

I wouldn't significantly dispute a bit word of this, or what follows.

> Unfortunately, a lot find their way to the chests of sailors and
> officers who CYAd successfully and kissed ass.  I remember what a
> shock it was for me to show up at department head school and find
> all these female LTs who I knew had never served a single day at sea
> or deployed and they all had multiple awards of the NAM and NCM.
> What a surprise. I always had the idea that shore duty was dead easy
> and a payback for arduous sea duty.

Well, not always -- as I'm sure you already know -- but there is
something dreadfully wrong with the sheer number of NAM/NCM awards the
admin folks somehow manage to find for themselves.  I doubt there are
even ten jobs for O-3's and below that are shore duty in the US that
come even close to comparing in arduousness and importance to the
least of jobs being performed on forward deployed warships.  Yet
that's where the medals are.

My first experience as a member of the "inner circle" on awards
discussions was as a senior LT on a carrier, where I wore hats in both
the Operations and EDSRA (ship overhaul) departments.  The sheer
politicking and horse trading almost overwhelmed me at first, but I'm
pleased to say I wound up doing pretty alright by my guys.

> Yes, I happen to believe that the Navy is cheapening these awards but
> we are still orders of magnitude away from the cheapness of the Army
> and Air Force awarded Commendation and Achievement Medals.  And, based
> on my exposure to Army counterparts wearing 4 awards of the
> Meritorious Service Medal, we haven't even started to cheapen that
> one.  Thank God for the Defense Meritoriuos Service Medal since that
> is about as phony as a 17 dollar bill.

Keep in mind these are services that decorate their chests for
completing OTS and boot camp.  (Yeah, I know, I thought it was a joke
when I first heard it, too -- but it's dead serious.)

Go back and try to dig up the stats on medals awarded for Grenada.
The USAF and USA guys back in Washington gave themselves something
like 98% of all medals awarded for that operation.  Hilarious.  I
believe it was Paine who wrote that what we obtain too cheaply we
esteem too lightly.
--
 From the catapult of J.D. Baldwin  |+| "If anyone disagrees with anything I
   _,_    Finger baldwin@netcom.com |+| say, I am quite prepared not only to
 _|70|___:::)=}-  for PGP public    |+| retract it, but also to deny under
 \      /         key information.  |+| oath that I ever said it." --T. Lehrer
***~~~~-----------------------------------------------------------------------

Newsgroups: sci.military.naval
From: baldwin@netcom.com (J.D. Baldwin)
Subject: Re: Navy Achievement and Navy Commendation medals--what are criteria?
Date: Wed, 17 Mar 1999 19:54:18 GMT

In article <19990317142945.00728.00000242@ng-fi1.aol.com>,
Jenydevine <jenydevine@aol.com> wrote:
> How in hell can an AF grad have two rows of ribbons just from boot camp??
>
> I don't doubt your account for a minute; I am just interested in what gedunk
> crap the USAF can justify giving to "boots" that could cause such a ridiculous
> phenomenon.  What a disgrace!!
>
> >baldwin@netcom.com (J.D. Baldwin)
> >wrote:
>
> >meeting up with the boot camp Air farce graduate enroute to his first
> >tour at Mildenhall.  He had just graduated from boot camp and had 2
> >rows of ribbons.

Your inappropriate use of quoting levels and attributions make it
appear as if I related the story about the 4-6 ribbon-wearing airman.
I did not.  The most ribbons I've ever seen a fresh-minted zoomie
wearing was three.  Of course, that doesn't count the dozen or so
metal and plastic doodads affixed to the uniform in bizarre spots,
but that's a whole separate discussion.
--
 From the catapult of J.D. Baldwin  |+| "If anyone disagrees with anything I
   _,_    Finger baldwin@netcom.com |+| say, I am quite prepared not only to
 _|70|___:::)=}-  for PGP public    |+| retract it, but also to deny under
 \      /         key information.  |+| oath that I ever said it." --T. Lehrer
***~~~~-----------------------------------------------------------------------

Newsgroups: sci.military.naval
From: baldwin@netcom.com (J.D. Baldwin)
Subject: Re: Navy Achievement and Navy Commendation medals--what are criteria?
Date: Thu, 18 Mar 1999 15:17:56 GMT

In article <lLEaDFA8YD82Ew0Y@pickmere.demon.co.uk>, M.J.Powell
<mike@pickmere.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> Do you actually get a medal for getting through basic training?

Sounds like a joke, doesn't it?  Yes, I can directly confirm that as
of 1987 the USAF was awarding ribbons to everyone who completed
initial training.  I commissioned a guy who graduated from OTS and
even *he* was laughing over the silliness of it all.
--
 From the catapult of J.D. Baldwin  |+| "If anyone disagrees with anything I
   _,_    Finger baldwin@netcom.com |+| say, I am quite prepared not only to
 _|70|___:::)=}-  for PGP public    |+| retract it, but also to deny under
 \      /         key information.  |+| oath that I ever said it." --T. Lehrer
***~~~~-----------------------------------------------------------------------

Newsgroups: sci.military.naval
From: baldwin@netcom.com (J.D. Baldwin)
Subject: Re: ESWS qualification (tangent off medals thread)
Date: Thu, 18 Mar 1999 21:46:17 GMT

In article <36F1249C.74B8@usa.no0bulk0email.net>, Brian
<Witch**Dr@usa.no0bulk0email.net> wrote:
> > No!
> > Say that is not so. Please?
> >
> > CapnTroy wrote:
> > >
> > > How about the lovely habit of awarding ESWS to midshipmen?
>
> Unfortunately it's true. To my dismay I've even seem Mid-Shitters
> awarded Dolphins and SSBN Patrol devices. A bunch of shit if you ask me.

The easy one, first:

If he was in the boat, standing watches, during the patrol, then
why shouldn't he get the patrol pin?

Now the harder one:

I don't believe that CO's are out there lowering the qual standards to
let a bunch of middies run around with a pin.  It is possible that if
you don't have a regular job (as a mid wouldn't), and if your whole
mission in life is to learn as much about submarines as possible (as
it is for mids on a summer cruise), and if you're bright and motivated
and just a bit lucky, you can *earn* those dolphins.

There are many recorded cases of enlisted men earning their dolphins
in under three months (a relative of mine who has commanded two boats
says he's personally awarded them to several -- and this guy would
*not* be an easy one to convince that you're qualified!).  Why not
a mid, especially considering how many fewer demands there are on his
time?

Personally, I have a bit of a problem with it because a midshipman is
not enlisted, and enlisted dolphins are intended to be worn by
enlisted men.  However, my opinion suffers from the disadvantage that
it is not supported by the relevant regulations in force.
--
 From the catapult of J.D. Baldwin  |+| "If anyone disagrees with anything I
   _,_    Finger baldwin@netcom.com |+| say, I am quite prepared not only to
 _|70|___:::)=}-  for PGP public    |+| retract it, but also to deny under
 \      /         key information.  |+| oath that I ever said it." --T. Lehrer
***~~~~-----------------------------------------------------------------------

Newsgroups: sci.military.naval
From: baldwin@netcom.com (J.D. Baldwin)
Subject: Re: ESWS qualification (tangent off medals thread)
Date: Fri, 19 Mar 1999 02:13:46 GMT

In article <36F19A1E.CE8DDCC4@panix.com>, Bill Rhodes
<brhodes@panix.com> wrote:
> No, because they are in training. They should _NOT_ have the
> responsibilies of watchstanding.

I beg to differ.  There are watches that may be qualified for in a few
weeks' time.  I was a fully qualified helmsman/planesman in SAM
HOUSTON (SSN-609) during my own middie cruise.  Once qualified, I
stood full watches without supervision and was the FIRST choice of the
COB for graded "interesting" evolutions like man overboard and "angles
and dangles."

I take strong exception to anyone who claims I was anything less
than a valuable, contributing member of the crew in this capacity
based solely on an accident of rank.

Furthermore, I achieved a basic qual as a sonar watchstander, though
I acknowledge it might have taken a few more months before I became
a highly prized asset in *that* division . . .

> > Now the harder one:
> >
> > I don't believe that CO's are out there lowering the qual standards to
> > let a bunch of middies run around with a pin.
>
> The real problem is this...Since they are officers in training, and
> I know that they are, technically enlisted while in the academy,
> they should perhaps have a special device.

USNA midshipmen are not in any way, shape, form or sense "enlisted."
You are thinking of ROTC midshipmen and cadets, who are in a
completely different category.

> To award them enlisted awards cheapens the value to the enlisted man
> and makes it appear that these are gedunks for Middies.

I think you may be overstating it.  I saw a bit of resentment on this
score among enlisted submariners, but they were surprisingly rational
about it when I explained it to them as I did in my previous post.
After all, they have to pass a board of submariners, who are not
likely to lower the standards for a midshipman.  It's still possible
to *earn* the award in a single (longish) summer.

I share your distaste for awarding it to midshipmen at all, but I
at least admit that this distaste has no grounding in reason,
regulation or current practice.  It's just a bias on my part.  Maybe
I'm just jealous because I never earned 'em.
--
 From the catapult of J.D. Baldwin  |+| "If anyone disagrees with anything I
   _,_    Finger baldwin@netcom.com |+| say, I am quite prepared not only to
 _|70|___:::)=}-  for PGP public    |+| retract it, but also to deny under
 \      /         key information.  |+| oath that I ever said it." --T. Lehrer
***~~~~-----------------------------------------------------------------------