From: Steve Harris <sbharris@ix.netcom.com>
Newsgroups: sci.med.nutrition
Subject: Re: PETA Kills Animals
Date: 22 Jun 2005 12:50:12 -0700
Message-ID: <1119469812.806436.116660@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>

>>Ingrid Newkirk: "PETA usually takes the animals back to Norfolk to be
euthanized, Newkirk said, in a process that involves a single hypodermic
shot and a gentle caress. Very few are ever put up for adoption, she
said. "We won't shy away from doing society's dirty work as long as the
alternative is a life of misery and a bad or slow death," Newkirk said.<<

COMMENT:

My lab has fostered several hundred kittens and cats for adoption at
the local Petsmart, doing free neutering, spaying, virus testing, and
administering vaccines and treating all kinds of parasites first. We
get them from owners who know what happens when they take them to the
pound.

The only two cats we euthanized in the last two years have been a pet
with a horrid squamous cell mouth tumor (it was time), and a feral
tomcat with FIV AND FeLV who became a vicious biter after we got
through curing the mite diseases that had turned his heat and front
quarters into an infected mass of cardboard-like skin and crust.

We are in the process of working with the local city council to turn
the local animal shelter into a no-kill shelter, where no healthy
animal is euthanized. We think it's possible to save 80% of the animals
this way. Pilot programs in both rural New York State and city (San
Francisco) areas suggest it's possible.

Neither the Humane Society nor PETA is any help in this process at all.
PETA makes our research with dogs harder by making it impossible even
to get already-euthanized dogs from the pound (we could use them for
histology and thermal modeling). PETA figures these dogs have been
"through enough" and deserve a quiet cremation without any chance to
serve a better purpose. As for the Humane Society, they don't impede
research, but they don't help that much with the pet problem, either.
On the contrary, they seem to be fairly happy with the euthanasia
status quo. About as happy as PETA is, apparently. PETA figures the big
difference they make over the humane society is a *caress* before that
Euthasol is given. Our animals get a caress, but also ketamine,
acepromazine, and gas anesthesia. But we save many cats for every dog
we kill, and we breed the research dogs ourselves. They're not pets.

I would personally like to kick Ingred Newkirk's behind up around her
ears for the damage she's done to biomedical research.  Failing that,
I'd like to force her to learn how to spay kittens, then make her do
few dozen, so she begins to have some innate understanding of the
animal control problem she thinks she's an expert in.

DAMN I hate people who can only shoot their mouths off, and are ever
good for any real work. People who criticise doctors without much
contact with the practice of medicine. People who criticise biomedical
research who have little understanding of science. People who have all
kinds of answers to animal control who've never been in the trenches
(or when they have, like PETA show their incompetence with solutions
everybody else either figured out long ago, or are in the process of
trying to change for the better.)

If I had PETA's 30 million a year I could convert a large part of
Southern California to no-kill shelters.

By the way, one wonders what PETA is using chemically for their
euthanasia. These things are all controlled substances. I have a DEA
number, the licensed vet on my staff has a DEA number, and my LAB has a
separate DEA licence. We have a monster drug safe, lots of oversite,
and all our i's are dotted and t's crossed. What about Ms. Newkirk?
Hey, FEDS!  Pay attention.

SBH

From: Steve Harris <sbharris@ix.netcom.com>
Newsgroups: sci.med.nutrition
Subject: Re: PETA Kills Animals
Date: 22 Jun 2005 13:38:04 -0700
Message-ID: <1119472684.152373.228450@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com>

>>The difference between PETA and other services, Nachminovitch said, is
that PETA never turns away an animal.

"We take in the animals nobody else will take," Nachminovitch said. <<

COMMENT:

This is complete BS, of course.  Your local animal shelter by law must
take anything you bring it. And their 20% adoption rates are about the
same as PETA's here in Southern California. In some cases even the
local government shelters do better than PETA.

And they don't compare with the local rescue service I volunteer for,
where adoption rates run well over 95%. We have the time to foster
feral kittens until they are socialized, treat injured and parasitized
cats until well, and so on. However, unlike the pound, we also have the
option of spaying and neutering feral unsocializable cats, then
chipping, ear-clipping, and returning them to their catch-site if they
were caught in well-nurished condition. There are many cats being fed
out there which will not enter a home, or which are being fed by people
unwilling to take them into their homes because they have behavior
problems.  So long as these are neutered, they do little harm to the
community. They aren't even noisy. Dogs, of course, are a harder animal
control problem.

SBH

From: Steve Harris <sbharris@ix.netcom.com>
Newsgroups: sci.med.nutrition
Subject: Re: PETA Kills Animals
Date: 22 Jun 2005 18:57:55 -0700
Message-ID: <1119491875.394951.193930@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>

> And they don't compare with the local rescue service I volunteer for,
> where adoption rates run well over 95%. We have the time to foster
> feral kittens until they are socialized, treat injured and parasitized
> cats until well, and so on. However, unlike the pound, we also have the
> option of spaying and neutering feral unsocializable cats, then
> chipping, ear-clipping, and returning them to their catch-site if they
> were caught in well-nurished condition.



>>Maybe that's hard on the local bird population.


COMMENT:

No doubt, but I have the feeling that the birds and mice are more in
danger from the total population standard housecats that get outside
time, than from feral cats. Simply due to the numbers, and the fact
that cats hunt for "sport" as well as food. A lust for feathers and
flying stuff is written into their genes. They even have a "word" for
it. It's sort of a jaw-chatter.

I suppose if you're a "bird person," all this bugs you more. But I seem
to have less sympathy for animals in their natural wild, even if they
are cats. It's as though we have some extra responsiblity for animals
we've taken out of their normal environment and overbred. When
abandoned, they're in a truly impossible position without even the
chance of a bird or mouse.

Or it may be that if I thought hard about the plight of the average
animal in the wild, I really would go nuts. So I pretend "la-la-la-la"
that it's like Bambi out there.

SBH

From: Steve Harris <sbharris@ix.netcom.com>
Newsgroups: sci.med.nutrition
Subject: Re: PETA Kills Animals
Date: 23 Jun 2005 11:02:38 -0700
Message-ID: <1119547496.519619.203550@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>

>>I suppose that since you're opposed to "good-death"
for cats and dogs, you're also opposed to physician-
assisted suicide?<<

COMMENT:

This question assumes facts not in evidence. I"m not opposed to
"good-death" in your sense for anybody or anything.

>>We euthanized our beloved Portuguese Water Dog, Gabbie, with Helium.
(We didn't want a Vet to intrude on this family event.) She went very
peacefully, in about 3-4 minutes.  She was 13 and enduring a great deal
of "dis-ease". <<

COMMENT:

That's fine, but you took a big risk. This kind of thing is species
specific. We once had the bright idea of euthanizing a rabbit with
inert gas (nitrogen) and it went nuts. Humans and (apparently) dogs
don't have an "low-oxygen" sensor so they can breath inert gas and go
out without any discomfort (nitrogen has been seriously and
intelligently proposed for human gas chambers). Burrowing animals like
rabbits and ferrets certainly do have a low oxygen sensor, so you
wouldn't want to helium-ize THEM. For rodents and cats, I don't know. I
can't swear this is confined to burrowing animals. That's the point,
you never know till you try it. And if it doesn't work, be prepared to
quit and try something else.

SBH

From: Steve Harris <sbharris@ix.netcom.com>
Newsgroups: sci.med.nutrition
Subject: Re: PETA Kills Animals
Date: 24 Jun 2005 09:48:04 -0700
Message-ID: <1119631683.996543.291420@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com>

I am a medical doctor but presently am the director of a lab doing
basical biomedical research. Topics are resuscitation, liquid
ventilation, pharamaceutical drug delivery and microemulsions. Our
research model is the dog, which we breed in-house. We're also a
cat/kitten rescue and adoption service on the side, figuring to make up
for the bad dog-karma with some good cat-karma. We're under USDA
inspection as a research facility, and our consulting vet is involved
in both the research and the rescue work. This has given me the chance
to learn some vet stuff. It's amazing how much it overlaps with human
medicine. I would say 90% of it is the same.

SBH

From: Steve Harris <sbharris@ix.netcom.com>
Newsgroups: sci.med.nutrition
Subject: Re: PETA Kills Animals
Date: 24 Jun 2005 12:08:59 -0700
Message-ID: <1119640139.830623.192830@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>

>>So am I qualified to be one of the experts here and sci.med or not? <<

COMMENT:

No, for the lovely thing about animal care is that it's pretty
mechanistic, and if you can't figure out what's wrong with the animal,
that's the end of it. The critter either dies, or gets better, or gets
on with the disability, and doesn't spend all of it's time finding
fault with the world. Where you need experience, is the human side,
where for your enlightenment you must encounter a certain educational
number of patients weak and dizzy, numb and tingly, with difficulty in
memory and concentration (except when it comes to their symptom list),
chronic fatigue (except when it comes to battling the medical and legal
systems, where they have the strength and tenacity of Spiderman),
fibromyalgia (well, actually it all hurts), and symptomatic problems
with every single organ system. They've been dying of it for years,
sometimes decades. Some you can find illness in with lab results, and
some not. Obviously many of these people have some disease which does
not yet have a name. But nevertheless like Nostradamus nearly all of
them are convinced they can see into the future of medicine and they
even now know the cause, and (more importantly) *who is at fault.* It's
multiple chemical sensitivities and the poluting corporations. It's the
mercury in their teeth or their vaccines, or other insidious heavy
metals which need chelation. It's aspartame or Splenda or wheat gluten.
And when these things are removed, the disease keeps on going. So what?
It's undiagnosed Lyme disease or EBV or CMV or chronic virus du jour.
It's mycoplasma picked up in the first gulf war, or some nerve gas
antidote. Or some nerve gas. Or it's the anthrax vaccine. Or it's
fluoride in the water, or IGF in the milk. Whatever-- the toxin list is
nearly endless. But the main thing, is there's some axe to grind about
it, and somebody who's gunna PAY.

In some primative populations such as the Indians of the Amazon, it's a
common belief that people are naturally immortal. ALL disease and death
is therefore due to curses, to some malignant influence of some other
human being. The only trick, then, is to find the person who is doing
the evil.  I've come to believe from reading anthropology and lots of
usenet that mankind is a natural witch-finding animal, and
witch-hunting is nearly the only thing we humans do all the time when
we're not thinking about food or sex or money or power or childcare.
And sometimes even then. If you look at TV, you'll see it's nearly all
witchhunting.

I've dealth with populations of naturally aging animals. I've seen most
of the same problems humans get, there. But no animal witches have I
discovered. As a doctor, I have dealt with the witchhunters. Sometimes
I've even been confused with the witch (get between witchhunter and
prey and see what happens). I've developed an aversion and fascination
with the process, and there are times when the world appears to me very
much like that scene in Monty Python and the Holy Grail where they're
trying to figure out what to do with the witch. "And what floats?"
"Wood"  "Very small rocks".  Well, yes and no.  The question is whether
or not we can make it out of the Dark Ages, or not. Part of what I'm
doing on this forum is talking about density and froth flotation and
skepticism and carrots on people's noses and burning at the stake.

And all the time I look at animals and I think of Walt Whitman:

I think i could turn and live with animals,
   they are so placid and self-contained
I stand and look at them long and long .
They do not sweat and whine about their condition ,
They do not lie awake in the dark and weep for their sins ,
They do not make me sick discussing their duty to God ,
Not one is dissatisfied ,
    not one is demented with the mania of owning things ,
Not one kneels to another ,
    nor to his kind that lived thousands of years ago ,
Not one is respectable or industrious over the whole earth.


And all I can say is "Amen."


SBH

From: Steve Harris <sbharris@ix.netcom.com>
Newsgroups: sci.med.nutrition
Subject: Re: PETA Kills Animals
Date: 26 Jun 2005 13:53:36 -0700
Message-ID: <1119819216.116089.168810@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>

>>Cryonics? (You didn't think I'd get that did you.) <<

Of course you're going to get cryonics. On the net, I'm Doctor Cryonics
and if you googled me and didn't get that, you'd be blind.

The reason I didn't mention that, is it's not what we do. Most of our
research is not cryonics, and the guys who actually do cryonics are in
anyother state. Of course there's overlap.

We have a couple of dogs who survived cardiac fibrillation/arrest with
circulatory arrest and no blood pressure, at normal body temp, for over
15 minutes. Dead on the table for 15 minutes. Yeah, that's a long time
to be clinically dead especially with no CPR. We've had them for about
8 years. They don't have ANY brain damage that we can detect. As I say,
we're researching resuscitation.

Cryonics is another matter. You go into liquid nitrogen, the damage
that happens isn't slight by any standards. The only thing you can say
about it is that it beats cremation or burial.

SBH

From: Steve Harris <sbharris@ix.netcom.com>
Newsgroups: sci.med.nutrition
Subject: Re: PETA Kills Animals
Date: 26 Jun 2005 13:59:24 -0700
Message-ID: <1119819564.746266.125100@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>

>>I think you'd have to do a lot of cat karma to make up for killing dogs
so wealthy wackos could be frozen until some time in the future when
they're rescusitated with just, er...slight brain and other organ
damage. <<


COMMENT:

I might also add that the natural customers of a resuscitation
technique that can get you back after 15 mintues on the floor in
cardiac arrest, would be people in cardiac arrest, and their families.
Alas, that's the world's worst business model.  Your only client group
consists of people who only need you for 15 minutes, once in their
lives (on average) and are unconcious during THAT time. Contrast that
with HIV infected patients who know they're dying for 10+ years, and
you'll see why resuscitation medicine takes it in the shorts.

There's also the FDA.  Try getting anybody to sign a research consent
form when you've got a couple of minutes after 911 is called, and the
actual research patient isn't even clinically alive. You'd think that
would make it easy, but the FDA knows how to make anything you like
into a $100 dollar problem.

SBH

From: Steve Harris <sbharris@ix.netcom.com>
Newsgroups: sci.med.nutrition
Subject: Re: PETA Kills Animals
Date: 26 Jun 2005 14:10:37 -0700
Message-ID: <1119820237.462982.118680@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>

>>but the FDA knows how to make anything you like
into a $100 dollar problem<<

Sorry, $100 MILLION dollar problem.