From: John De Armond Newsgroups: rec.guns Subject: Re: Combination Sillouette/Pig Handgun Keywords: Thompson Date: 26 Sep 89 21:45:04 GMT In article <33778@ism780c.isc.com> szirin@cbnewsm.ATT.COM (seth.zirin) writes: >Wounded pigs can be pretty nasty. I'd worry about not having a second >shot with the T/C. Even with .35 Rem. What about a Ruger Blackhawk >or S&W M29? Or something in 45 ACP? (Is 45 ACP too slow for Sillouette?). You'd be mortaring a .45 at the rams. We recently experimented with a 10mm auto at the sillouette range. About 3 out of 5 times, a solid hit on a pig would leave it standing. IT would be hopeless on the turkeys and rams. Most "high power" pistol rounds just don't have much to offer at 200 meters. For street combat or protection, they're fine but it takes big bore rifle-level power to reliably knock down the rams. My shooting partner left a ram standing last weekend with a dead center shot out of a 30-30 TC! Not fun. >If you're set on the T/C, maybe you should carry something to keep on tap >as a backup. AMEN. My brother, who is a big-time hog hunter carries both a .357 python and a sawed off shotgun loaded with slugs. He's the type of guy who jumps the hogs and stabs them to death with a knife. So I take his choice of backup weapons seriously. John From: John De Armond Newsgroups: rec.guns Subject: Re: Combination Sillouette/Pig Handgun Date: 26 Sep 89 21:49:20 GMT In article <33585@ism780c.isc.com> mikek@aeras (Mike Kane ) writes: >Right now I'm leaning towards the Thompson/Contender with a .35 Remington >for pigs, and a .44 Magnum for Sillouette; both with the 14 inch barrell. >The ability to buy extra calibers/barrells is most attractive. Comments? In my opinion, you are underpowered for both. I KNOW that the 44 mag is not competative in Sillouette. There are a few guys that shoot 44's but most have gone to the 357 maximum in revolvers or a number of varieties of rifle cartridges in bolt/production guns. If you want to shoot production class, you'll have to choose one of the approved rounds. I know many people shooting 30-30 in TC guns. Also popular is the 7 mm imsha round. If you want to shoot unlimited, the TC is really not too competative anymore. Most winners are shooting bolt guns like the XP-100 or like mine, a Shilin-action based custom. here, the 7-br round is popular as is the imsha 7mm. I shoot a .308 nato round with a 148gr fmjbt bullet out of a 14" barreled Shilin. This round has a bit more recoil than some people like but it REALLY makes the rams an offer they can't refuse. Even with foot shots. Any of these high power sillouette rounds with soft nose bullets will be fine for hogs. I'd optimize which ever activity I shoot most. In my case, it is competition. IN any event, I'd not fool around with 2 different rounds. This just doubles the amount of experimenting you must do and increases your reloading costs. John From: rsiatl!jgd@stiatl.UUCP (John G. De Armond) Newsgroups: rec.guns Subject: Re: Hearing Protection Keywords: hearing Date: 25 Oct 89 23:47:18 GMT In article <35468@ism780c.isc.com> avf@cheetah.megatek.uucp (Andy Funk) writes: >Question for the Net: What is the LOUDEST gun you have ever fired? A tie between my 3" black powder cannon and my Shilin .308 Silhouette pistol firing rounds loaded with about 45 grains of IMR-4350. (NOT a good load for pistol work but great for an M-14) Spectators say that the ball of fire is several feet in diameter. The blast is strong enough that it blows up dirt in front of the firing benches and shakes pigeon do-do from the roof tin. I do know that in spite of shooting glasses with side guards, the blast brings tears to my eyes. People on the tables next to my position pack up and leave :-) This is a seriously loud load. My cannon was built by me specifically to make noise and secondarily to blast golf balls long distances. I machined the barrel with a small step in the end so that when wet sand is packed in for tamp, it traps the sand for a second, generating more pressure. I fill the barrel about half full ffff powder and the rest is filled with wet sand. Takes about half a pound of powder. The sound is awsom. I've had the opportunity to witness tank cannon fire and this little one is comparable. I really have fun on the 4th of July and New Years :-) John From: rsiatl!jgd@mathcs.emory.edu (John G. De Armond) Newsgroups: rec.guns Subject: Re: Long-range pistols Keywords: handgun, long range Date: 3 Aug 90 17:43:11 GMT In article <7877@orca.wv.tek.com> cscc1f@jetson.uh.edu (Greg Hayes) writes: > What kind of weapons are used for these shoots? Later, in the article, > you say that he used a production handgun...is it magnaported? Any > other mods? I'm figuring at these extreme ranges, that these weapons > are chambered in magnum loads. Ten inch barrel...hmm...then these > weapons are hunting handguns to start with. When I read the laser > article, I was meaning by handguns autos and revolvers with 5 in > barrels or less. I've shot T/Cs chambered in .35 Rem and had no > problem hitting at 100 yards. I've also used my Ruger Blackhawk, > chambered in .41 mag w/ a 6.5 in barrel to hunt deer up to 50 > yards. In IHSMSA Unlimited class, I use a custom-built bolt action pistol with a 14" barrel, 3 oz trigger and chambered for .308 Nato. I use a 150 gr FMJBT bullet on top of 45 grains of H-4895. This is a medium-hot load that knocks down rams at 200 meters with authority. No Magna-porting or other recoil reducing means used - not necessary. For production class, I use a Thompson/contender chambered for 30-30. I use a 165 grain FMJ bullet on top of 17.5 grains of Dupont 4759. This is a heavy load that cause some case stretching but is necessary for reliable Ram knockdown. Both pistols are very enjoyable to shoot. I enjoy shooting either more than I do my IPSC Colt .45. The recoil, while more than with a .45, is more manageable and much less annoying. John From: John De Armond Subject: Re: T/C Contender Barrels Organization: Dixie Communications Public Access nosun!pdx.csd.mot.com!brian@cs.UMD.EDU (Brian Vandewettering) writes: #I've decided to purchase a .223 Rem barrel for my T/C Contender. Does #anyone have experience with the SSK barrels. The standard barrel from #T/C seems to give about 1 3/8" groups at 100 yards in the tests I've #seen. Will the SSK cut that group in half? Is magnaporting or a muzzle #brake needed on this caliber in a handgun? You won't need magnaporting on a T/C with that puny round :-) .30-30 has much more recoil and a .308 (NOT recommended by T/C) gets your attention. You'll barely feel the .223. Regarding barrels, IHMO, you can't improve on T/C barrels. As I've posted here before, I've witnessed repeatable <1/2" groups from a 10" .30-30 at 100 yards. I can't shoot that tight but the gun can. I also witnessed a couple of grains of powder throwing the group size all to hell. What we've found for .30-30 for silhouette shooting (which may or may not hold for .223) is that the heavier bullets stabilize the best. After finding a good bullet, one MUST work up a load for the particular gun. Factory rifle ammo in a pistol is not optimum. For the .30-30 I've become quite fond of IMR SR-4759 powder. It is a very light, bulky powder that yields very good accuracy with low recoil. John From: John De Armond Subject: Re: .45acp for silhouette Organization: Dixie Communications Public Access. The Mouth of the South. blatt@pss.fit.edu writes: #Does anyone have advice on loads/bullets for .45ACP for use in the NRA #hunters pistol (10" SSK barrel, open sights, 40m to 100m)? Yeah, don't, if you can help it. The ACP is a great manstopper but it sucks as a long range round. Consider: First, a factory load. Federal 45A 45 Automatic (Match) MC (Calculated using Ingalls' table) Bullet Weight ......... 230 grains Bullet Caliber ........ 0.451 Sectional Density ..... 0.162 Coefficient of Form ... 1.056 Effective Bal. Coeff... 0.153 Bal. Coeff. at STP .... 0.153 Cross wind ............ 10.0 m.p.h. Altitude .............. 0 Ft. Atmospheric pressure .. 30.00 in. Temperature ........... 60.0 F Range Velocity Energy Momentum Mx. Ord. Defl. Drop Lead Time yards f.p.s. ft-lb. lb.-sec. in. in. in. in/mph sec. 0 850 368.9 0.8681 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.000 27 828 349.8 0.8452 0.5 0.2 1.8 1.7 0.098 55 806 332.0 0.8235 1.9 0.9 7.5 3.5 0.198 82 786 315.6 0.8029 4.4 2.1 17.1 5.3 0.301 109 767 300.2 0.7831 8.0 3.7 30.9 7.2 0.407 The killer is almost a yard of drop at the ram line and almost half a second flight time which gives the wind a LOT of time to kick up. Now let's consider a hypothetical load, a very hot one that is perhaps not even possible. For sure not possible in a weapon with a loading ramp relief on the breech. Federal 45A 45 Automatic (Match) MC (Calculated using Ingalls' table) Bullet Weight ......... 230 grains Bullet Caliber ........ 0.451 Sectional Density ..... 0.162 Coefficient of Form ... 1.056 Effective Bal. Coeff... 0.153 Bal. Coeff. at STP .... 0.153 Cross wind ............ 10.0 m.p.h. Altitude .............. 0 Ft. Atmospheric pressure .. 30.00 in. Temperature ........... 60.0 F Range Velocity Energy Momentum Mx. Ord. Defl. Drop Lead Time yards f.p.s. ft-lb. lb.-sec. in. in. in. in/mph sec. 0 1200 735.3 1.2255 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.000 27 1137 660.0 1.1610 0.2 0.3 0.9 1.2 0.070 55 1085 601.3 1.1083 1.0 1.3 3.9 2.5 0.144 82 1042 554.2 1.0640 2.4 2.9 9.0 3.9 0.221 109 1005 515.3 1.0260 4.4 5.0 16.6 5.3 0.302 You're still dealing with a foot and a half of drop. This means you're going to be changing your sight setting at least for the turkeys and rams. Now let's take a look at a factory load .44 mag from a 4" barrel: Federal 44C 44 Rem Magnum MCP (Calculated using Ingalls' table) Bullet Weight ......... 220 grains Bullet Caliber ........ 0.429 Sectional Density ..... 0.171 Coefficient of Form ... 0.885 Effective Bal. Coeff... 0.193 Bal. Coeff. at STP .... 0.193 Cross wind ............ 10.0 m.p.h. Altitude .............. 0 Ft. Atmospheric pressure .. 30.00 in. Temperature ........... 60.0 F Range Velocity Energy Momentum Mx. Ord. Defl. Drop Lead Time yards f.p.s. ft-lb. lb.-sec. in. in. in. in/mph sec. 0 1430 998.8 1.3969 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.000 27 1352 893.3 1.3211 0.2 0.3 0.7 1.0 0.059 55 1282 802.6 1.2523 0.7 1.2 2.7 2.1 0.121 82 1218 725.2 1.1903 1.7 2.6 6.4 3.3 0.187 109 1164 662.1 1.1374 3.2 4.7 11.8 4.5 0.256 Now the drop is under a foot and the time of flight is at a quarter of a second. Not bad. You could get away with maybe one sight adjustment for the rams or maybe not if you can hold up just a little on the ram line. Juice this up a little with a custom load and you for sure can get away without any sight changes. I've tried shooting at a regular handgun silhouette range with my IPSC gun just on a lark. It reminded me of mortar fire :-) I did finally find a spot on the dirt bank above the pigs that I could sight on and hit fairly reliably. I had time to lower the gun and see the bullet hit. If there is ANY cross-wind at all, forget it. If you have to shoot .45ACP, load 'er up hot, get a high rear sight and fire away. But if you have a choice, get something hotter. John |
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